Hilary Graham is one of the hardest working artists I know and she’s learned to build failure into her writing process. Her talent and perseverance has landed her in Hollywood, where she’s worked on some of the top shows, including "Bones"and "Orange is the New Black," and she was the show runner for the Netflix series "Social Distance." Join us as she talks about overcoming obstacles and the challenges and rewards of writing for TV and film.
Hilary Graham is one of the hardest working artists I know and she’s learned to build failure into her writing process. Her talent and perseverance has landed her in Hollywood, where she’s worked on some of the top shows, including "Bones"and "Orange is the New Black," and she was the show runner for the Netflix series "Social Distance." Join us as she talks about overcoming obstacles and the challenges and rewards of writing for TV and film.
Follow Hilary on Instagram @HilaryGraham.
Watch Social Distance
Check out Brad Montague's work
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And a blast from the past: Stephen J. Cannell title card
Tricia: [00:00:03] Hey, there. I'm Tricia Rose Burt, and I want to ask you a question. What creative work are you called to do but are too afraid to try? Are you in IT but dream of doing stand up? A PR exec who longs to write a screenplay. Did the pandemic change your priorities and you want to leave your fully funded PhD, M.D. program and go to New Mexico and paint? Or maybe you're like I was in my early career, trapped in a lucrative but soul crushing corporate job, when what I really wanted to do was tell stories on stage. In this podcast, we'll hear from artists who took an unexpected leap and found the courage to answer their creative call so we can inspire you to answer yours, because this is no time to be timid. Welcome to the show. Today, we're going to explore the eighth principle in the No Time to be Timid manifesto: Failure is your friend. And while I've been on this journey long enough to know it's all part of the process, sometimes the process doesn't feel that good, which is why we look for inspiration in artists who've overcome setbacks and persevered. I just heard an amazing story about a guitarist who opened for the Monkeys, you know, the pop band with the TV show back in the late 1960s. [00:01:30][87.2]
Music: [00:01:31] Monkees Theme Song. [00:01:41][9.2]
Tricia: [00:01:43] This guitarist had a following in the U.K., but not in the U.S. And his promoters thought if he opened for The Monkees, who were wildly popular at the time, it would bring him some good exposure. So the first night the guitarist opens for the band about 5 minutes into his set, the crowd starts booing and they keep booing and they're screaming for Davy Jones, the lead singer of The Monkees. It happens the next night and the next. Every town they go to for eight nights, the guitarist gets booed. So he quits the tour. But he keeps making his music. And thank goodness, because the guitarist was Jimi Hendrix. Jimi Hendrix! What would the world be like if Jimi Hendrix, guitar god, had let fans of The Monkees, a pop band that lasted about two years, convince him that he was a failure? [00:02:37][53.9]
Music: [00:02:38] Foxy Lady. [00:02:39][0.5]
Tricia: [00:02:46] And I've read about Kathryn Stockett, who wrote the book The Help. Over the years, she sent letters to more than 60 agents asking them for representation, and all 60 agents said no to her. And with each rejection, she worked harder on her book. Finally, the 61st agent said yes, and in three weeks she had a book and a movie deal. Failure was definitely her friend. This past September, I attended a Fail-a-bration, an event hosted by a wonderful artist named Brad Montague, and he invited folks to get on stage to tell their tales of failure -- to celebrate when things went sideways or backwards or just blew up. It was just a hoot, and everyone in the audience could relate with every single storyteller. And after each story, Brad instructed us to say to the storyteller, "We see you. We thank you. We love you." Something we should say to ourselves in the mirror every day, particularly when we've hit a creative bump in the road. Our guest today is Hilary Graham, who's overcome all kinds of obstacles in her writing career. But her perseverance has landed her in Hollywood, writing for some of the top shows, including Bones and Orange Is the New Black. And she was the showrunner for Social Distance, a recent Netflix series. She joins us from her home in Los Angeles. Hey, Hilary, it's so good to have you here. [00:04:19][93.0]
Hilary: [00:04:20] It's very nice to be here. [00:04:21][1.3]
Tricia: [00:04:22] I want to ask you the question that I asked most of my guests to begin. What was your first act of creative courage? [00:04:29][7.3]
Hilary: [00:04:30] I think any time you put something out in the world, it's an act of courage or say, I put a poem in my high school literary magazine, which I did or did like Poetry Slams in my twenties in Boston. Or, you know, I made my first feature film when I was 23. That was a very big act of courage. I mean, that was the first real big one. Of course, I'd made, you know, I majored in film, so I made student films. And any time you're putting something out for people to have opinions about and not just opinions, just see something, you know, it's very vulnerable position often for an artist to put their work in the world. So my feature film premiered at the Museum of Fine Arts in Boston. [00:05:13][42.2]
Tricia: [00:05:13] Oh, wow. I didn't know that. What was the name of the film? [00:05:16][2.4]
Hilary: [00:05:16] It was called Life's Too Good, and it was semi-autobiographical. And I made it at the very knowing and wise age of 23. So it was perfect. No notes! No. I mean, it was not, it was not great. The strength I think people found from that was in the writing, even though the writing is not super great either. I think that was like the strongest part. So 400 people in that theater seeing that movie and feeling very exposed for sure. [00:05:46][29.3]
Tricia: [00:05:48] But you had to have a sense of accomplishment attached to it as well. [00:05:51][3.0]
Hilary: [00:05:51] Yeah, there was a great sense of accomplishment for sure. And yeah, it was really scary. I mean, it's still really scary, right? It's still really scary when you put something in the world and then you wait for people to receive this thing that you've cared about for so long, put so much of your, you know, heart and soul and often money into it. Definitely in the case of this first indie feature. And then people are just like, hated it, you know, or you know, whatever they say. I mean, there were also many fans, but I remember getting for that film a bad review in The Boston Globe that just felt humiliating. That was my hometown newspaper. I mean, the Boston Phoenix -- there was a great review. But The Globe is the Globe. Everyone knows the Boston Globe. And yeah, and just being very young and not knowing how to process that. [00:06:41][49.3]
Tricia: [00:06:41] This is what this episode is all about, is that failure is your friend. I know! Obviously you have done quite well for yourself, you know, since that experience however many years ago. But you could have said, Oh, well, I'm done. These people didn't like it. I'm now not going to do this anymore. And the trick is going, Yeah, I'm just going to do it again, or maybe some more. How do you handle perceived failure? [00:07:06][24.3]
Hilary: [00:07:06] I mean, I think in some ways I handle it very differently now. You know, now I tend to not look at things in black and white terms. Back then, I think it was, you know, oh, my God, one person said one bad thing, so I'm a failure. Or it didn't get into Sundance, so I'm a failure. You could argue in many objective ways that my first feature film was not a great success. I mean, it was a great success in that I had the chutzpah to do it, you know, and then that I followed through and actually did it. And there are some beautiful moments in it, and it was an incredible learning experience. I mean, I got into festivals, right, and it got some nice reviews. Just not the important festivals, not the important ones. And for me it was such a formative experience because I think success is often measured against expectation. And at the time, did I handle failure super well? No! There was a lot of like feeling bad about myself and self-flagellation, and it took a while for me to sort of lick my wounds and say, I'm going to do this again. And I think when I did it again, which was so this film I shot when I was 23 and it came out when I was 24 or something like that. And then the next one I was 27 and 28. So it didn't take me that long to say, All right, I'm going to do it again. And it was, I think still at that time coming from this energy, like I'll show them. And I did I or didn't I? I mean, the second one had like a little more success. It was very different. The first one was like a conventional narrative feature. The second was, if I may say so, a little ahead of its time and very and very flawed at the same time. Yeah, I did this whole hybrid of documentary and fiction and was like a personal narrative documentary, but with fictionalized elements. So I was sort of following the formula of like a Ross McElwee or like, you know, Rob Moss or any of those like Harvard, you know, personal narrative documentary guys. But then I was adding my own, like, style and flavor to it. And yeah, I mean, that one had more like that one sold to WGBH and like a lot more people got to see it. And again, some nice festivals, some nice reviews, but not the important festivals. Not the important reviews. And after that, just maybe I'll just give up. So for me, failure has meant I learned something along the way. I, I have an idea that I'm like, Oh, this is the way to do it. I make a big swing, and then I do the thing, and then I see how it's received. But suffice it to say that all of the disappointment and heartache of these experiences, there was also pride. There was also a tremendous amount of learning, and I was able to be aware of it at the time. It may have temporarily made me sort of have a little tantrum of like, I'm quitting this business and never doing it again, which nobody cared. Like that was just to myself. But yeah, I think once I got over that, that pain, the work was always still there. And even when I moved to New Hampshire, I mean, this is several years before I met you. But yeah, I met my husband around the time that my second feature was coming out and then I was like, Oh, yeah, I don't need to do this anymore. I don't need to spend all this time and energy just to have these movies not make me wildly successful. So screw it. Like, let's just buy a beautiful house in the country and just be like people in love that live a happy life. And that worked for a little while. And then we got married and had our son. I was a stay at home mom for a phase of his early life. And I started noticing that during his nap time I would start writing and I could tell myself, like, this hurts too much. I can't put myself up for this kind of failure. But the weeds grow up in the cracks in the sidewalk like there was nothing I could do. [00:11:00][234.0]
Tricia: [00:11:01] You are one of the hardest working artists I know. I mean, it is remarkable. And I have watched you go through, you know, several creative projects that were successful on one hand, but didn't hit the success that you wanted on the other hand. Yeah. Yeah. And there is an interview that you had in Backstage right when you came out with Social Distance about your writing process. But you have a terrific quote in it. You say, I don't believe in writer's block. I believe in sitting down writing something shitty and then working on it till it gets better. I think it enables me to both get a lot done and not be so hard on myself. I spent the first 10 to 20 years of my career being very hard on myself and not having as much success. When I learned to have more compassion for myself and be like, "This wasn't a good writing day. Oh, well, there's always tomorrow." Things just opened up. I want you to talk a little bit about that idea of being compassionate to yourself and how that actually pays off in the work later on. [00:12:04][63.2]
Hilary: [00:12:05] Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think that might be the biggest takeaway from those early, quote unquote, failures in the way that, like the world defines if a project succeeds or fails, which is like box office or, you know, the world will define those as failures. And I guess part of me does. But like, I don't frame it like that anymore. I truly don't. I don't know that there's a lot of value in that because it's as dangerous to frame your success like that. Right? Because you can read one review about yourself and be like, Oh my God, I'm the biggest genius in the world. And then you can read another review that's like, I'm the biggest idiot in the world. And neither of those are true, right? You have to have compassion for yourself. You have to be able to have some discipline with your work and have a goal. Compassion doesn't mean anything goes. And I'm just going to write something that isn't working. I mean, you have to know your craft and study your craft. There's this very romantic notion that we see in movies sometimes that a writer sort of sits down in like a surly mood or like with a bottle of booze or something and just like type something out and then like rips the sheet out. I remember from watching TV growing up that Stephen J. Cannell, you know, like he's truly doing that. Like, that's the, you know, his title card for all of his very successful seventies and eighties shows. And that piece of paper is flying. It's like done. It just doesn't work that way. But most of the time it's just revising and rewriting. [00:13:31][86.5]
Tricia: [00:13:33] How are you kind to yourself in the process? [00:13:35][2.0]
Hilary: [00:13:36] I don't know if this is kindness. I'm going to think about that. But, you know, one thing that I did not know at all in my twenties was self-care or my hard work ethic was sort of a little self punishing. But typically I'm a pretty hard worker and I have a lot of discipline. But I also know if I'm stuck with something, then it's time to take a walk or bike ride. And you know, I figured that out in New Hampshire when I was in my thirties that some of my best work came from walking away and just giving my mind space to figure it out. And it still works that way for me. I think for most people and you don't have to bike or hike, you can -- there are other ways to do that. But for me, that's how it works. The answer isn't always right, but you're not going to sort of force it into being. But yes, some days I'm not going to write beautifully and some maybe even for the whole week. But I think there's value in allowing yourself to not be perfect because it's very rare that we are perfect, right? And there's just value in giving yourself permission to keep moving forward and then come back. [00:14:50][73.9]
Tricia: [00:14:56] We'll get back to the second half of our conversation in a moment. But right now I want to tell you about our sponsor Interabang Books, a Dallas-based independent bookstore with a terrific online collection. At Interabang, their dedicated staff of book enthusiasts will guide you on your search for knowledge and the excitement of discovery. Shop their curated collection online at Interbangbooks.com. That's Interabang I N T E R A B A N B books dot com. Stay with us through the end of the episode and receive a special online offer. Is there one particular experience in your life that you thought seemed like a big setback at the time, but was actually rocket fuel for something else? [00:16:01][64.3]
Hilary: [00:16:02] I think my first feature film was an example of that, but I'm going to tell another example because this is failure right before my Hollywood career started. And you were involved in it because you were reading drafts of this. So The John Oliver Show, which is that wildly successful, wildly funny show on HBO. Weekly comedic look at the news, but sometimes depressing comedic look at the news. So it hadn't started yet, and they were looking for writers. And my agent at the time is like, Listen, I know you want to move to L.A. although the show was in New York, he's like, I know you want to get on the staff in a writer's room. And I never written for that kind of show before. You know, I was writing sample scripts that were dramas or dramedies or comedies, but they were, you know, narrative stories. I wasn't writing that type of writing. And there's some people that right off the bat, they're like, I want to write for Late Night. And that was not me. And I hadn't had experience in that, but I was open. So my agent said, Have you ever written a comedy packet, which is what they call it. And I was like, No, what is it? And I literally Googled comedy packet and he said, Do you want to give it a shot? I was like, Yeah, I do. At this point, I was in the Writers Guild and I was like flying up to L.A. and, like, selling scripts and like, kind of making a living as a writer, writing, you know, TV movies and movie movies. But wasn't big money in it. It was one choice that I could have had had I chosen to stay in New Hampshire. But I was like, No, no, no, I want to give this a shot. So I Googled how to, you know, what they're looking for. And I wrote a comedy packet in a short amount of time and they're like, Oh, we love it. So now the next assignment next week we're going to send you a thing and then you're going to have 48 hours to do it because the John Oliver people want to know that you can write quickly and take in current news events. And I did. And then they're like, okay, so now you're coming to New York to meet John Oliver. And I was like, Oh my God, this is happening. You know, I was meeting Tim Carvell, who's the showrunner, and John Oliver and an HBO executive. That's like a big meeting. And I was so nervous and long story short, I did not get the job. I cried for, like, three days. I was so close. This was my only chance. And bapa ba ba ba. You know, and I had this whole narrative of, like, why I would never get another opportunity and then cut to, like, six months later, I came out to L.A. to do some rounds of staffing, and I got the offer to write on Bones, which is was my first job in a writer's room. You know, I wasn't meant to write a news, you know, a news comedy show. First of all, it's not what I was aspiring to write. I was aspiring to write stories about human beings, like drama. Yeah, dramedies. And so realizing that that experience, which felt like such a failure, just opened up the door to the thing that was more right for me. [00:19:02][180.0]
Tricia: [00:19:02] I want to go back to this one thing that you said, because I can totally relate to it. I cried for three days and thought, I will never have another chance. I will never have an opportunity. You know that place where we go it's so black and white. This is it. Yeah. That, you know, the train left and everyone's on it except for me. [00:19:19][16.7]
Hilary: [00:19:20] Yeah. [00:19:20][0.0]
Tricia: [00:19:20] I thought you were going to go out to L.A. even before you had the job with them. [00:19:24][3.9]
Hilary: [00:19:25] We were planning anyway. It was finally like I had to do it. I mean, I was already entering a writer's room, like, 15 years later than most people who enter writers rooms, at least. [00:19:34][9.0]
Tricia: [00:19:34] Let's just stop for a second and back up and say, that's amazing. Knowing that you're you're going to a writer's room ten, 15 years later than most people, you are ignoring whatever odds there are against you. I mean, you're just not listening to it like you're not, you're not thinking that this is going to fail in your forecast. It's like I am doing this regardless. [00:19:57][22.2]
Hilary: [00:19:58] Well, I mean, you can't listen to anyone. That's the number one rule of Hollywood. You just have to listen to yourself. [00:20:03][5.7]
Tricia: [00:20:04] I mean, being an artist, actually. [00:20:05][1.5]
Hilary: [00:20:07] Yeah. I mean, of course, if you keep pushing something along that is not working, I think you also have to be able to pivot. And that's just you have to be able to be honest with yourself. And that's harder. You have to be able to know when to let a project go. So the John Oliver thing, it was so hard for me at the time because it felt like it was my only shot and that was not good thinking. Even though I had had therapy and grown up in the time from like my feature films in my twenties, like that black and white thinking it just never serves you. Of course it wasn't the only shot. And the thing that changed my attitude when I came, I talked to a friend who's very successful public television executive. And she said to me, she's like, Don't go into this Bones interview thinking that, like, I either get this job or I never get a job. Just be a little lighter with it. And I did. And I went into it and so it wasn't so fraught. Like I went to the John Oliver thing, like struggling over what I was going to wear. Like they weren't going to be like, Oh, she has a striped shirt on, she's hired, you know, or whatever. It was like it didn't, nobody cares. Nobody cares. Like I was just so far up in my own head and like, it's this or like it's now or never. And that's just not true because we all miss opportunities all the time. It's part of what we do. It's baked into what we do. Failure every single day. When you're when you're working in this business, right. You have a pitch in the writer's room that everyone loves and you think is great. And then something changes and it moves on. And like, the thing that everyone's like, you were such a genius, or everyone laughed at your joke or like whatever. And then you get on a different track and like that becomes irrelevant. It's just gone. You cannot be so precious. You just can't like there's no room for it. And I think there's room for it. And I think a lot of people are precious about a joke or an opportunity, but it it just doesn't serve you because then you're just constantly dealing with that rejection. Whereas if you detach a little and sort of look at the long game, there are times when more things hit and there are times when things don't, you know, there are times when everything you do, you're having a great run and everything you pitch, people want to buy. And there are times when that doesn't happen. That's just how it goes for everybody. [00:22:23][136.3]
Tricia: [00:22:24] I can't take it personally. All I can do is do as good as work as I can. And if all of those other things line up -- and there's a lot of other things I have to line up -- because we know we've all made fantastic work and it was either ahead of its time or just a moment too late or was it, you know, whatever it is. But now I've learned and I think you have to nothing is wasted because you just build on whatever it was and it makes you smarter for the next thing. It just makes you smarter for the next project. [00:22:54][29.7]
Hilary: [00:22:55] Absolutely it does. I don't think there is anything wrong with me testing my breadth as a writer to write a comedy packet. And I'm looking back, I'm really proud. I got so close. I had never written a comedy packet. I had never defined myself as a straight up comedy person, like I did that and I got to some of the funniest people on the planet. That's enormous success, right? That's how I look at that experience now. [00:23:19][24.0]
Tricia: [00:23:19] You have written a young adult novel. I've seen you perform on stage at The Moth. You have written, you know, film screenplays, you have television shows, you know, this comedy packet. I mean, you just write all the time. And you and I have talked about, though, how sometimes we spend time on other projects and sort of not pay attention to what we really want. Like you've always really wanted to be a television writer and you kind of took some scenic routes a couple times. [00:23:51][31.5]
Hilary: [00:23:51] Well, I didn't realize, actually, I wanted to be a TV writer until later in life. I mean, I didn't even know I wanted to be a writer until I was in my late thirties. I went to film school and thought I wanted to be a director and in my late thirties had this opportunity where I was like, Oh my God. It was really the only epiphany I've ever had in my life. [00:24:11][20.1]
Tricia: [00:24:12] And this was this On the Lot, right? [00:24:14][2.1]
Hilary: [00:24:14] Yes. Where I was like, directing makes me stressed and writing brings me joy. And then it was just very clear that I could look back on my life. You know, hindsight is 2020, but I was like, Oh yeah, of course you're a writer, dummy. Like I mentioned, the high school literary magazine. I was the editor-in-chief. I started doing slam poetry in my twenties in Boston. Like I was always writing, writing, writing and never defined myself as a writer. So it was nice to have that clarity and then once I did, to just embrace it. [00:24:42][27.8]
Tricia: [00:24:42] Let's just be clear here on that experience on On the Lot. What there were 12,000 people who applied and you made it to the top ten and you know, which is crazy but that nudge of saying "not director, you're a writer" you know that's really important. If we're not listening, life is putting us on the track that we need to be put on. [00:25:00][18.1]
Hilary: [00:25:01] Well, yeah. I mean, I think I just wasn't listening to myself. I didn't have those skills to know how to do that. You know, I look back and I think, Why didn't anyone tell me? And then there's also the thought maybe they did. I see how like the advice I'll give to my son, who's 18, you know, I've tried to, first of all, to try to get him to notice what lights him up. Right? And nobody I don't think people were trying to get me to notice, but then maybe they were and I was like, I'm not listening to you because I'm, you know, 17 or 27, like whatever. I, you know, I feel like that that is a possibility and I'll never really know. So I just had my journey. We're not one thing, right? We're not. We don't, like, come into the world like I was put on this earth to do this one thing. I think some people are, I guess, but I think that's incredibly rare. And so even like my first big success, which was like moving to L.A., being able to like walk into a writer's room and have a paid job writing for TV was like, Oh my God, I've made it. And Bones, listen, I love Bones and I love everyone who worked on Bones. Was it my favorite show? No, it wasn't like the show that makes my heart sing, which is different than when I got the call that I was meeting on Orange is the New Black, and this is just the meeting. I was so excited to be meeting with Jenji that my son, we were on her way to a soccer tournament. He thought I got the job and like told all his little friends at school. And I was like, Oh no, no. I just got that excited to be in a room with Jenji, you know? And then, of course, I got the job. And yeah, that experience checked a lot of boxes for me because it was a show that I admired and like, had something to say in the world and, you know, just felt like a better match for the type of stuff that I wanted to write and my voice. So, but, you know, not everyone has that all the time in their career. [00:26:56][115.3]
Tricia: [00:26:57] Right? I mean, there are seasons do things and sometimes all everything lines up and we're in exactly the place we want to be. But you would have never made it to that room without the 20 years of things that worked, things that didn't work. Navigating that and just not giving up has just paid off for you. [00:27:17][19.8]
Hilary: [00:27:18] It's really just not giving up, I think, right? When you get knocked down, standing back up and, you know, working to get better at what you do and learning from people around you. [00:27:29][10.9]
Tricia: [00:27:29] I have this quote that you wrote, I think also this is from the Backstage article. And you say I have a lot of crazy ideas. Sometimes they're ridiculous and sometimes they become a TV show, you know? And inherent in that is failure like they might work, may not work. You know, you're embracing that idea of being curious and being adventurous and just moving forward. What's scaring you right now? Are you finding yourself having to get some courage and just put it out there? [00:27:56][26.5]
Hilary: [00:27:56] I don't think what I'm doing now takes a lot of courage. It just takes energy. I have a lot in development, like a lot of different projects that I'm pitching or about to pitch or a pilot I'm going to be writing soon with another writer. You know, I'm not scared of any of it. I'm not scared of failure. Not all of these projects will succeed, the ones I'm about to pitch, and maybe none of them will. Being hopeful, but not knowing which one of these things is going to happen, you know, and I feel very lucky that this stuff that I'm developing all feels like it really checks a box for me creatively, that I'm not doing anything exclusively for the paycheck at this point. And not that there's anything wrong with that, because I think that happens sometimes too. But yeah, that, you know, the stuff that I'm attached to as a writer or creator/showrunner is stuff that is appealing to me. But the executives at these places control that. So it's just realizing how much of it is out of my control. [00:29:00][64.1]
Tricia: [00:29:01] Well, it also sounds like you're building again failure in quotes into the process. [00:29:05][3.8]
Hilary: [00:29:06] It's part of the process no matter where you are in this ecosystem. Right? For me, it's just having enthusiasm. Like I if I ever stop having enthusiasm about creating a pitch for something, then that will be a sign to take a break. Or that this isn't the project for me, you know, and this is gig work right now. I have a bunch of projects that I'm working on, but I'm not pushing myself. I'm just doing what I need to do because I just was feeling a little burnt out and just knowing when to step back, when to say, okay, I'm not going to, I don't know. I just have to let go. Just let things be, you know, just finding some ease in all of it as opposed to, like, self-flagellation. [00:29:50][43.6]
Tricia: [00:29:51] We're going back to that compassion. Yeah. Yeah, it is. It's really interesting. What used to drive you was self-flagellation. And now what seems to drive you is enthusiasm. Like wanting to make the work. [00:30:02][10.3]
Hilary: [00:30:02] Yeah, for sure. [00:30:03][0.8]
Tricia: [00:30:04] That's a very different motivating factor. So hey, Hilary, I really appreciate you joining us. I know even though you're easing back a little bit right now, I know you still have a full plate. [00:30:14][9.4]
Hilary: [00:30:14] So it's you know, it's been my pleasure to be here. And I love talking about failure. [00:30:19][5.2]
Tricia: [00:30:33] Well, Hilary's learned to make friends with failure, and it's paid off for her. And now that you've heard her story, here are some questions that you may want to consider. Can you think of a failure in your life that was actually rocket fuel for your work? Do you make room for failure in your creative process? And how do you treat yourself with compassion? To see what projects Hilary will be working on next, follow her on Instagram @HilaryGraham. If you haven't had a chance to download the No Time to be Timid manifesto yet, make sure to visit my website triciaroseburt.com. And while you're there, please reach out and give us some feedback about the show. We'd love to hear your thoughts. And if you feel like this is no time to be timid in your own life, then maybe I can help you with that. In my private coaching practice, I help my clients to tell and live better stories. Some of them are artists and creatives who want to express themselves in a new medium. Others are leaders who want to motivate groups to take action. And many of them are business professionals who want to better communicate with their customers and employees. You can reach out to me at triciaroseburt.com and make sure to follow me on Instagram @TriciaRoseBurt. Our friends at Interbang Books are offering a 10% discount on books we recommend on the show so you can stock your creative library. This episode's book recommendation is Elizabeth Gilbert's "Big Magic," a terrific book about living a creative life without fear. Go to interabangbooks.com and receive a 10% discount when you use promo code Not Timid. Again, that's interabangbooks.com promo code Not Timid. Thanks for listening. I hope you'll join us for episode nine "There is courage in community." We'll be talking with comedians Ophira Eisenberg and Bethany Van Delft, two very funny women who came to comedy later in life. Make sure to tune in and remember, this is no time to be timid. No Time to be Timid is written and produced by me, Tricia Rose Burt, Our executive producer, is Mia Rovegno and our sound engineer is Adam Arnone of Echo Finch. If you like what you hear, please spread the word, subscribe to the show, and review us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen. No Time to be Timid is a presentation of I Will Be Good Productions. [00:30:33][0.0]
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