Visual and sound artist Perri Howard talks about recording sound in the quietest place on earth, falling in love with whale songs, and always coming in second place. In every area of her creative practice, she's willing to explore unfamiliar territory and shares with us how to do the same.
Visual and sound artist Perri Howard talks about recording sound in the quietest place on earth, falling in love with whale songs, and always coming in second place. In every area of her creative practice, she's willing to explore unfamiliar territory and shares with us how to do the same.
Check out Perri's work at perrilynchhoward.comincluding her gallery installation Once Upon A Whale Song and public art piece, Alightment.
View her work from her upcoming show "Hear This" at the Seattle Art Museum Gallery.
And follow her on instagram @velocitymadegood.
Other resources from this episode include:
Hey there. I'm Tricia Rose Burt, and I want to ask you a question. What creative work are you called to do but are too afraid to try? Are you in IT but dream of doing stand up? A PR exec who longs to write a screenplay? Did you change your priorities and now you want to leave your fully funded PhD/MD program and go to New Mexico and paint? Or maybe you're like I was in my early career, trapped in a lucrative, but soul crushing corporate job when what I really wanted to do was tell stories on stage. In this podcast, we'll hear from artists who took unexpected leaps and found the courage to answer their creative call so we can inspire you to answer yours. This is no time to be timid.
Tricia
Well, welcome to the show. If you're just tuning in, this season, we're exploring the traits that are necessary to sustain a more creative life. And in this episode, we're all about exploring because our guest visual and sound artist Perri Lynch Howard, chose exploration as the trait that is most important to her creative practice. Now, just for kicks, I looked up the word exploration because I love any excuse to read the dictionary, the actual dictionary that you hold in your hands, not the one online. And I thought it might help me go a little deeper into its use and meaning. Here's the definition: the act of traveling in or through an unfamiliar area to learn about it. And the word explorer means to look into closely, examine carefully, investigate. And this is exactly what Perri does in her work, not only by traveling to new landscapes, but also while creating in her studio investigating images and objects. While you're listening to this episode, check out her website perrilynchhoward.com and see what I mean. Her series, Complications of Cordage, which just takes my breath away and her series, Quickenings, are fantastic examples of how to visually explore. And if you've been with us since season one -- and if you haven't, please go back and check out those episodes, we had some great conversations -- you may remember my first guest, Tim Donovan, who said that when he went to art school in his early forties, he didn't necessarily want to become a better artist. He wanted to become a better explorer. And in this episode, Perri's going to help us learn how to do just that. Enjoy the show.
Tricia
Hi, Perri. It's so great to have you on the show.
Perri
Oh, thank you so much for having me with you today, Tricia. I'm so excited for this conversation.
Tricia
Where have you been since the last time you and I have had a conversation?
Perri
Well, since the last time we spoke. Yes. Up to Svalbard in the Arctic Circle to do some field recording up there and then back to home for just a little while, and then most recently to Ecuador to do field recording in one of the quiet places on earth. It was really stunning, natural, quiet places on earth.
Tricia
What do you record in one of the quietest places on earth?
Perri
Well, natural sound down there clocks in at about 70 decibels, which is about the sound of like the level of like, say, a vacuum cleaner. Only it's frogs and insects and birds and rivers and all kinds of things. But it was a wonderful opportunity to visit the Amazon rainforest and record natural sound without the additional layer of anthropogenic sound or human made sound like no airplanes going overhead.
Tricia
I was going to say, explain that word for me.
Perri
Yeah, anthropogenic sound. So the sounds that we make, whether it's the like shish shish of our nylon pants or it's, you know, our voices or our phones going off or computer dings or watches, you know, those are all manmade sounds. And traveling deep into the Amazon rainforest, I had the opportunity to take a break from all that and really focus on the very intense sounds of the natural world. It was wonderful.
Tricia
What did that feel like?
Tricia
Did you feel kind of a vacuum or a loss in some sense by not hearing the human sounds?
Perri
Yes, I mean, the main feeling for me was relief. Just to take a break from that intensity of the human presence. Right? Like in my day to day world, I'd say I spend most of my time planning for my next interaction, interacting or reflecting on my last interaction, you know, with people. Yeah. And and I live in, you know, in really close proximity to the natural world, but still, you know, it's very peopley. So the lack of that for a short period of time was was a big relief for my nervous system. It felt, I felt my whole being relax. But I also had the sensation that, you know, in the Amazon you're not top dog like there you very much had the sense that you are a small piece of protein in a very large ecosystem and not so much that you know, the Amazon is the backdrop for my very interesting life. It didn't feel like that at all. It was much more like I am a very small part of this much larger hole. And that was intimidating and scary in some ways, but also activated my imagination in all kinds of other ways, like what's watching me right now, What's sensing me right now, you know? Yeah, it was a really powerful experience.
Tricia
Oh, my gosh. Just to get the relief from what we're bombarded with, just to have a break and just to just observe, you know, just notice. I've been talking about noticing on several of my podcasts, and it seems like without those human distractions you could really focus in on not only the outer world, but the inner world at the same time.
Perri
Yeah, very, very true. I mean, and that sound to me is becomes the primary sense. You know, like standing in the standing in the jungle there's no, like, horizon to fixate on. No real sense of obvious destination. So you're right there in the middle of it all. And your eyes, you know, register, you know, a gazillion shades of green. But it's really your ears that you use to locate yourself in space and garner your surroundings. And within that listening experience are so many layers of noticing. It's not just I notice that I'm on to the next thing. It's like, okay, I notice that sound, it's continuing. And then there's another layer below that and another layer below that. So to have a very deep observational experience, as you said, as an artist, you just, you know, you thrive on it, right? It's your job to stay sensitive always as an artist, to stay sensitive to your surroundings. That can be exhausting, but it can also be so stimulating and often just with the work needs. I think, you know.
Tricia
You travel intentionally, but how important you think travel is for any artist, even just a studio artist, not just a studio artists, an artist who works primarily in their studio. Is it something that you think is critical?
Perri
That's such a great question. And, you know, people are as varied as they could possibly be about their approach to travel, particularly in this day and age, when travel is not necessarily given, when travel is not a right, but like an enormous privilege and has its own sets of circumstances that may be stressors, I guess? I mean, travel for me, yes, it's critical to my process. I'm looking at these environments that are on the frontlines of climate change but haven't necessarily always been on the frontlines of climate change. I'm looking at, you know, addressing questions of what makes a place extreme. You know, and like, when does a journey begin? Is it when you get on the plane or is it when you open the map for the very first time in your studio? You know, so I'm I'm really looking at this process through my work investigating place, but on a very root level, I think travel is important because it gives us a basis for comparison. You know, so the change of scene isn't just like a knee jerk reaction, like, oh, I don't really like home right now or I'm a little bored and I need to get out, right? Sometimes I feel that way. Most of the time what I'm seeking is a basis for comparison. So I grew up on the East Coast on, you know, the Eastern seaboard, on the Atlantic Ocean in a little fishing town. And now I live high in the North Cascades in a very arid, snowy, sunny climate. And that gives me a tremendous basis for comparison within my work -- the hot, the cold, the wet, the dry, etc., etc.. So I think basis for comparison is what's critical for artists and how they find that, you know, it could be just over the threshold of your front door or stepping off your porch in the morning or even just noticing how the weather changes without going anywhere at all. So is travel essential? For me, it is. For others, it may not be, but there is an edge that's created between one experience and another and one place and another. Those places don't necessarily have to be far apart from each other to explore the richness of it, I would say.
Tricia
You know, this season is about endurance. It's about sort of running that creative marathon, you know, you made the decision to really step into a more creative way. Some people can do it will make the transition to do it really in earnest more full time, some or working it into, you know, complementing, you know, the careers that they have or the work that they have to do or the family they're trying to raise or the elderly parents are trying to take care of, you know, there's a whole variety of listeners to this program. How do you sustain your practice? Well, how do you just keep going? You know, how do you when it's lots of energy, not a lot of energy, you know, successes, not successes. What are those things that you have -- the thread that sort of hold things together?
Perri
Yeah, it's endurance is you know, that is it's such a wonderful word. It brings up so many ideas. It's about continuity, but it's also about pushing it a little bit, right? Like when you feel like you can't push it anymore. Can I just push it a little bit? You know, it's a wonderful word. It's totally appropriate to the creative process. So my experience with what it takes to keep going is based much more on variability than it is consistency, to be honest with you. I used to be an artist that, you know, it's like I'm going to show up every day. I'm going get out of bed, drink my coffee, get to the studio at eight and show up and I'm going to stay there til four. And I had I was like super regimented and then was reminded by a friend, it's like, Perry, you are, you don't have to be like the rest of us. Like, you don't have to, you don't have to just set those rules for yourself. The 9 to 5er, I'm a 9 to 5 artist, you know. And as I've gotten deeper into my practice, I don't hold myself to those standards anymore. I actually find that the best way for me to sustain it is for each day to be a little bit different. So some days I come into the studio really early. If it's nice outside, I'll go running or walking or hiking or birding for a while and then come into the studio. If I have a big writing project, sometimes it's better for me to do that work at home so that it's not existing in the same space that I'm trying to paint. And then for maybe three months at a time, I just get all fired up about painting and I paint and paint and paint and paint and paint, until that kind of runs itself out. And then I'll shift gears and work on sound stuff. So what it takes for me to keep going is to make sure that my life is flexible enough and the people around me are understanding enough to know that every day could be different. So my version of endurance is a twisted path, but I feel like I'm always on it.
Tricia
That is the wisest thing I've heard in a long time, because I, you know, I billed my time in 15 minute increments for years, and I am so used to making sure that my time is accountable and it, even still...I haven't been conventionally employable in a very long time.
Perri
Good for you. Excellent.
Tricia
But still, there's this residual what my time in the studio should look like. And do I have something to show for what I did today? Even though I spread the gospel of process all the time. You know, not focusing on the end product, what's the process? That's where we find the joy in the work, the enthusiasm in the work where we make our own personal discoveries. And yet I can look at my day or look at my week and go, exactly what did you accomplish? And it's really not the right question. Right? So crooked lines. A long time ago, a priest said to me, God writes straight with crooked lines. I always loved that because like you said, you know, you're on the path, right?
Tricia
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Tricia
The name of your studio is Velocity Made Good.
Perri
That's right.
Tricia
I need to know why.
Perri
Oh, because it's a crooked path, Tricia. Yeah. So the term velocity make good or VMG it's often called -- I grew up sailing and was a racing sailor, like all through college and much of my life. Now I live far from the ocean, so I'm not sailing so much anymore. But VMG, the velocity made good velocity is speed. When you're in a sailboat or a plane or anything, really. Velocity is speed, right. You moving across the ground velocity is speed. Velocity made good is speed toward your destination. So if you're sailing and you're sailing upwind, you have to do this thing called tacking back and forth where you go a little to the left and a little to the right with the boat so that you are able to make progress. Because if you try to sail straight into the wind, it stops you dead in place. Yeah. So you have to do this maneuver of like going a little left and a little right, little to port, little to starboard in order to get to where you want to go. And for me, I -- so high VMG means you're getting where you want to go as efficiently as possible. Low VMG means you're not really going anywhere. But the idea that you have to go over here to get over there is I mean, it's not really like a mantra type thing, but it's something that grounds me in my process rather than the outcome. So many of the outcomes that I've experienced as an artist, positive or negative, had a non-linear path leading up to them. So why should my studio practice have a linear path, right? Like, like I'm not some I'm not shot out of a cannon every morning and, you know, end up in the right spot at the end of the day and how can I make my process super linear and expect to reap the benefits of all the non-linear results that I've had as an artist? You know, just so VMG velocity made good keeps me grounded in the process of moving forward. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Tricia
To our listeners, Perri and I just met last summer and, you know, immediately hit it off and had a lot of conversations and she was able to come to the east because you were installing that wonderful work Once Upon a Whale Song. Talk about the Once Upon a Whale Song, that work.
Perri
Absolutely, Yeah. So Once Upon a Whale song is a sound installation with hanging textile scrolls. And I was in residence at the Rocky Neck Art Colony in Gloucester, Massachusetts. And I was walking down the dock one day and I stumbled into the world headquarters of Ocean Alliance, which are vanguards in the field of whale research and conservation. This Ocean Alliance was founded by Dr. Roger Payne, and he is credited with discovering that whales not only make sounds but sing songs. So whale sounds had been heard prior to his research, but he made the connection that they actually sing songs and as a sound artist, stumbling into this whalesy place, I was just like, totally captivated. So I decided to make a body of work based on the early days of bio acoustics. The Ocean Alliance has an amazing library of recordings, and I started going through the recordings.
Tricia
Okay, so stop. Tell everybody what bio acoustics is.
Perri
Bio acoustics is listening to animals. Okay. Right. So it can be like humans as well can be bio acoustics. But the field of bio acoustics is using sound data to understand the health of populations of, you know, say, whales or lynxes or anything that makes a noise. Bio acoustics is used to measure the presence or absence of those animals.
Perri
I was really interested in the bio acoustics of whales, and I was interested in Payne's work because it was a really powerful example of how artists made, can make a difference when it comes to climate change or the environment. The album Songs of the Humpback Whale, which he published, became the bestselling environmental album in history. And it was to me, it was just like, wow, that's that's an example of taking something from the natural world, bringing it into the context of expression such that people make a relationship with it. And to me it was a really powerful example. I was like, what can I learn from that relative to my own work with climate change? So Once Upon a Whale Song combines these early recordings of the researchers sitting in tiny boats with reel to reel recordings in their lap, listening to whales, wondering what they're hearing. And then also my own recordings, using a hydrophone in the water from my paddleboard in various bodies of water. And then ship traffic coming through, because now that's a really big issue when it comes to whale conservation is ship strike. As the Arctic Circle is melting, ship traffic is increasing and it's happening right through the migratory routes of whales. So I'm looking at that through my work now.
Tricia
Yeah, that's fabulous. That's really fabulous. You know, I encourage all of our listeners to go to your website because there's just sound after sound after sound, and they're accompanied with these beautiful images. So it's a whole visual auditory experience when we listen to these sounds.
Sound Recording
October the seventh, 1974, very early in the morning, the moon is rising in the east. We can just begin to see the very first faded light of dawn.
Sound Recording
Just barely. This is take two of this day, the conditions are.
Sound Recording
Really getting very good. There's one whale right out in front here.
Sound Recording
This is the beginning of take number 46.
Sound Recording
Whale song.
Tricia
I wasn't expecting when I was looking, I mean I knew that you had a combined visual audio experience in your installation in Gloucester. I didn't know you had all of that every time that you do a sound piece that it can be paired with a visual. And it was such a wonderful experience to look at those. It really was.
Perri
Thank you so much. Thank you for spending time with it.
Tricia
Oh, yeah. No. Gosh. I was like, why aren't I listening to this ocean sound every day? Because I'm from Florida. I'm in the woods in New Hampshire. I'm like, oh, this could make me just feel way better, way better. So when you came, you were installing your work last summer and we sat a little bit on my porch. We talked about the fact I'm a storyteller, and you said, I want to tell a story about how I always come in second. And I just totally resonated with that. I think I told you about the time when I was making more visual work and I was so excited about getting into this competition and my work was going to be in this fabulous magazine, and they chose 40 artists and they said, we're so sorry you didn't get in, but we wanted to let you know you were 41st.
Tricia
Did I want to know that? You know, do I want to know I'm 41st? Or do I just want to just say you didn't get it, you know? So so talk a little bit about your experience in coming in second. How do you move through that?
Perri
It's such a good question and it's really like it's so cathartic to talk about it because like the resume doesn't show that, you know, like, I mean, as a mid-career artist, I have a totally decent resume. Like, I'm really proud of my resume, I'm proud of the residencies and appreciate the grant, the granting agencies that have funded my work. Like my it looks pretty good on paper, but yeah, it's the thing that nobody knows. And there's this little relief that comes with talking about the thing that nobody knows.
Tricia
And I actually talked to a friend of mine who's a she's a director down in New York, and she said, some people are starting to put on their resume "and I came in second" or whatever that whatever that equivalent is. By the way, I came in second, which I think is fascinating.
Perri
Yeah, it is really fascinating. And it's a really interesting pattern that's emerged and it started very early in my life where I've been waitlisted, I can say for every important thing I've done in my life. Like going on the Outward Bound course in the West Coast that like I really was dying to do because I was a 16 year old and I was confused and I was sad and not going in a good direction and got waitlisted, but then got in. And now I live four miles from where my Outward Bound course left from. So that's still playing out in wonderful ways. Evergreen State College, undergrad, waitlisted, like heartbroken, didn't want to go to UMass, wanted to go west, went out there with my father, kind of barged into the admissions office and like they said, we need another essay from you. And so like I sent in this tear-stained essay like I need to go to Evergreen. And they're like, okay, you're in, you know? Wow. Yeah. Grad school was the same. Grad school, I was told, you know, we really weren't convinced by the strength of your work, but we thought you'd round up the group really nicely. Like that one still hurts. Yeah. And then you know, I have a Fulbright. I applied for a Fulbright and I was waitlisted for the Fulbright and still wasn't quite on to this that coming in second for me was the first step toward getting what I wanted, you know, ultimately, I guess. Right? So, again, non-linear, can't really script this, but it keeps showing up, you know, I was waitlisted for the Fulbright, I was so angry. I went to the Amazon for the first time and coming out of the jungle, totally covered with mosquito bites and like sweaty and gross and had a really hard trip. And I opened my inbox and was like, Oh, you have two weeks to appear at the consulate in Chennai. Yeah. So and it keeps happening Tricia like, I'll just put it up at a bookmark in it there. But for whatever reason, like I thought my lot in life, my glorious lot in life was to be an artist. But it's actually finding the yes below the no, like I hear no, and I just get activated and I'm like, Is that no? Is that like, no maybe? Or is that like, No, no. You're like, no no no.
Tricia
Is that a not yet? Is that a not yet?
Perri
Is that a not yet? Is that a not now? And which brings up, you know, all of the things you and I have spoken about so many times now about, you know, well right thing wrong time, wrong thing right time, right thing right time, wrong thing wrong time. You know, it's sort of like, you know, we're not in charge of that. And there's, you know, as an artist, you have to give up a lot of ground all the time because you're trying to do something with yourself, with your life that others may not understand, may not support, may go straight to the bottom line, like, how do you make a living, which is, you know, still for me, an impossible question to answer, except that I try every day. Yeah, you know.
Tricia
But it is the hustle.
Perri
Yeah, it's the hustle. There's a ton of hustle.
Tricia
There's a ton of hustle.
Perri
So that's, that's the story with coming in second, which is really funny because it actually goes back to how with the circuitous route by which we met, which was I was seated in the main cabin on a flight across the country, you know, and sort of settling into my very cramped circumstances there. I think it was even a middle seat. It was just like a late flight. And but then I got upgraded at the very last minute, and there I was exactly where I wanted to be seated, seated next to our mutual friend who introduced us, you know. Coming in second. Yeah. It's, it's something that shows up for me constantly. Residencies, grants, all kinds of stuff.
Tricia
But, you know, I think what's so interesting, I mean, we can call it coming in second. Yeah, but I think the way that you described it, finding the yes underneath the no, that's really everybody's life if they're paying attention. But it's really an artist's life in that sense of, well, I can't go that direction right now, so let me go in this way. It's what makes us resourceful because I think if you if you just take a no at face value, that's just not going to work for you because, you know, there are so many no's I've gotten, that thank, actually thank goodness. Thank goodness I got that no. So often it's a thank goodness. I either wasn't ready. It wasn't the right fit. It's what I thought I wanted. It wasn't. So I think there's that sort of the patience of being an artist of just let's see how this plays out. I mean, there's a certainly a commitment that's required, but there's also holding everything loosely, you know, just kind of holding things loosely.
Perri
What you said about holding things loosely is just that is such great wisdom. That's such great wisdom because you never know. You never know. I mean, I apply for I apply for shows sometimes and I'm like, yeah, I have no chance. I've absolutely no chance. But these curators are really interesting to me and I'd love to just flash before their eyes, you know, a split second and see if anything resonates for them like it does for me, you know? Yeah. And then, you know, as you mentioned, you look at what artist was chosen or, you know, what got shown instead and you realize like, oh my gosh, if they were looking for that, they sure didn't want me, you know, like, yeah, that's happened. Yeah. Like I say, okay, what work was selected. It's like, oh, oh. If that's what they wanted, then yeah, no, I'm not right, you know. Yeah. Not, I'm not right, but just the fit is not there, you know.
Tricia
Yeah. Talk about this piece that you just installed because you just installed -- Alight.
Perri
For many years, maybe 20 years, public art has been my job job. Like the large projects, pay for the small ones, right? I wasn't sure, still not sure I'm going to make a living as a sound artist. I think that's a big ask. It burdens my process around sound in ways that I'm not willing to do. But public art has been a wonderful way to combine creativity and adrenaline, frankly. You know, you work on these large projects in the public realm, and Alightment is the piece you're referring to. It's a 16 foot tall steel sculpture that's perforated with a pattern that is an abstract interpretation of birds taking off and landing. And it's in the heart of this community called Spectra, which is a new housing development, if you will, that's in Redmond, Washington. And it's an artwork that I hope will inspire people to consider their place in the nature of things, you know, their own departures and returns to home. What home means to them. And I wanted it to read kind of like a votive candle, you know, like the like a tall.
Tricia
It does.
Perri
beacon like a but like, not like a beacon like a lighthouse, like really bright, but like, you know, just this visual touchstone at night, imagining people coming off the, you know, commuter train and parking their car and coming back to their family and just creating a little sense of hearth around that, you know, warmth around that.
Tricia
Well, it's like coming home to roost. Like, you know, when the birds roost at night, you know? I mean, you know, I'm married to a bird watcher, so we we talk bird at our house. And so it was it's. It's just a beautiful piece.
Perri
Thank you.
Tricia
What is requiring a lot of courage for you right now?
Perri
Oh, I love this question. I love this question. What's requiring a lot of courage is stepping into the space of doing more work with sound and really digging in to my painting practice and committing to my painting practice that I, I never have before. As I mentioned, public art has always been my job job, but I have been seeking more opportunities around grants and support for my studio practice and sound work and less opportunities for the public art. I can't just pull the pins out of all of that because it is my livelihood. But it's taking great courage to think about defining myself as an artist that works with sound and does paintings and does more based on my intuition and less based on these giant collaborations. Right? So I guess what's requiring courage is claiming some kind of solo space within myself where I don't need a hundred thousand people collaborating with me to express what I want to express, which is the case with public art. And trust me, I love threading that needle. I love working with groups, but I my heart flutters when I say it that could I get out there on my own? Could I navigate solo? Could I possibly bring a vision that's all my own? And yeah, it almost makes me teary to say.
Tricia
Oh, okay, we need to follow up with you. Yeah, if you're okay with us, I'd love to check back in with you at the end of the season and say so, how you doing?
Perri
I would love that.
Tricia
The whole no time to be timid community is lifting you up in this in this endeavor. You know, it's a very brave thing to do. I'm sure you can pull it off, Perri.
Perri
Oh, I hope so. If nothing else, I'll tell you about all the things I was runner up for in the last few months. Fantastic.
Tricia
That's the perfect way to end. Thank you so much for coming on the show, Perri. I really appreciate it. We'll stay in touch.
Perri
Thank you so much.
Tricia
My conversation with Perri inspired me to reexamine how I approach my everyday studio life and to think about new areas that I can explore. And I found myself asking some questions that I'll share with you. First, what new and unfamiliar territory are you exploring? Second, are you holding yourself to a rigid routine or are you allowing yourself some flexibility for each day to be a little different? And lastly, can you think of some times when there was a yes below the no?
Tricia
If you're in Seattle during July, Perri will be part of his show at the Seattle Art Museum gallery called "Hear This," visual depictions of sound waves, examinations of the underwater world, and connections to the elements of the air and water. The show runs July 5th through the 30th. And if you can't be there in person, don't worry. There'll be a link to the online exhibition in the show notes.
Tricia
If you haven't had a chance to download the No Time to be Timid manifesto yet, make sure to visit my website. triciaroseburt.com. While you're there, please reach out and give us some feedback about the show. We'd love to hear your thoughts. And I'm excited to announce a live virtual workshop I'll be conducting on Thursday, June 29th. No time to be timid: Kickstart Your Summer Creativity. Many people begin this summer with big plans for a creative project but never manage to get started to see their ideas through. Don't regret the work you might have done. Instead, feel the rush that comes from doing it. In this two part live workshop we'll identify a realistic creative goal for this summer, the steps you need to take to make it happen and how to overcome the obstacles that may appear. You'll receive motivational emails in mid-July and mid-August, and you'll have accountability too, because we'll meet again right before Labor Day to review our progress. For more information, go to my website triciaroseburt.com/notimetobetimid. And make sure to follow me on Instagram and other social media sites @triciaroseburt. Join us for our next episode when we talk with Jeri Lynne Johnson, the founder and artistic director of Philadelphia's Black Pearl Chamber Orchestra. Jeri's broken barriers across the U.S. and Europe as the first woman and sometimes the first African-American woman on the podium for many orchestras and opera companies. It's an incredible interview. Don't miss it. No Time to Be Timid is written and produced by me, Tricia Rose Burt. Our episodes are produced and scored by Adam Arnone of Echo Finch, and our theme music is Twists and Turns by the Paul Dunlea Group. If you like what you hear, please subscribe to the show, spread the word and review us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen. No Time to be Timid is a presentation of I Will Be Good Productions.