At 84 years old, Laura Wilson could run circles around most of us. She throws herself into her creative projects — which often take years to complete — with high energy and optimism. She moves quickly, never dallying when pursuing her creative work (a missed opportunity to photograph John Updike still stings). And her work reveals the humanity and stories behind individuals, communities, and events that we rarely see -- cockfighting, cowboys, drug smuggling searches, debutantes, world-famous authors, and reclusive religious groups. In our conversation, we talk about working with famed photographer Richard Avedon, the keys to her decades-long career, and her induction into the National Cowgirl Hall of Fame (at age 79).
At 84 years old, Laura Wilson could run circles around most of us. She throws herself into her creative projects — which often take years to complete — with high energy and optimism. She moves quickly, never dallying when pursuing her creative work (a missed opportunity to photograph John Updike still stings). And her work reveals the humanity and stories behind individuals, communities, and events that we rarely see -- cockfighting, cowboys, drug smuggling searches, debutantes, world-famous authors, and reclusive religious groups. In our conversation, we talk about working with famed photographer Richard Avedon, the keys to her decades-long career, and her induction into the National Cowgirl Hall of Fame (at age 79).
Takeaways
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The National Cowgirl Hall of Fame
Laura: [00:00:04] My name is Laura Wilson. I'm a photographer, and as a member of the Cowgirl Hall of Fame, we all know it's no time to be timid. [00:00:13][9.0]
Tricia: [00:00:15] Hey there. I'm Tricia Rose Burt, and I want to ask you some questions. What creative work are you called to do but are too afraid to try? Is there a change you want to see happen in your community, but you're waiting for someone else to step up and do it? Is fear of failure preventing you from starting new things that will make a difference to your life and to others? In this podcast, we look to artists to lead us and show us how they use creativity and courage to make changes in their lives and in the world. Pay close attention because this is no time to be timid. [00:00:49][35.0]
Tricia: [00:00:57] Welcome to the show. Over the seasons, I've interviewed all kinds of artists, but this is the first time I've talked with someone who was inducted into the Cowgirl Hall of Fame at the age of 79. The renowned photographer Laura Wilson joins us for this episode, and she is an inspiration. While you're listening to this podcast, go to Laura's website, laurawilsonphotography.com and check out her photographs. Many of them take place in the American West, which is why she's in the Cowgirl Hall of Fame. And her range is incredible. Cockfighting, cowboys, debutantes, drug smuggling searches. There are exquisite portraits and compelling photo essays. But what most of these photographs have in common is that Laura's subjects are difficult to get access to. That's what interests Laura -- to use the great strength of photography and reveal worlds that we may not otherwise see, never with judgment and always with compassion. Laura recently published her book The Writers, which features 38 world famous authors including Seamus Heaney, Zadie Smith and Cormac McCarthy, who hadn't been photographed in about 20 years, and a host of Nobel Laureates and Pulitzer Prize winners. But I was introduced to her work back in 2000 with her book, The Hutterites of Montana. For more than 14 years, Laura photographed the daily life of this religious community, which didn't allow photography, gaining their trust and unprecedented access. At the end of the project, one of the community members said to her, "I've been thinking and thinking about what you've been doing and if it's wrong that you're taking pictures. I've come to the conclusion that maybe a soul can be saved by reading this book and looking at pictures. The way we dress, our modesty, the kind of life we lead. Perhaps people will stop and think. Maybe they'll be helped. That would gratify God." This is the power of Laura Wilson's work, and in this episode she teaches us creativity and imagination are essential to the creative process and so are hard work and discipline. To complete a project, you must have a laser like focus and obsession. If you have a creative idea, don't dilly dally or you may miss your opportunity. You must move quickly and decisively. And pay attention. Stay alert so you can capture creative moments. I'm so glad you're joining me for my conversation with Laura, who at 84, has no intention of stopping. Hey, Laura, welcome to the show. [00:03:42][165.3]
Laura: [00:03:43] Thank you. Tricia, I'm very glad to be here. [00:03:45][1.9]
Tricia: [00:03:46] We were talking a little bit before we went on air. I first received one of your books back in 2000, The Hutterites, and so I've been a fan of yours for a very long time. [00:03:57][10.8]
Laura: [00:03:57] Thank you. [00:03:58][0.4]
Tricia: [00:03:58] First of all, tell me why you started taking photographs. I know you majored in art. Why did you decide to shift from painting to taking photographs? [00:04:06][7.8]
Laura: [00:04:08] Oh, painting, as you may know, Tricia requires a great deal of time in order to get the paints out, to paint, have enough time in which to paint, and then cleaning up after. I mean, it's a big process. So imagine the fun of grabbing a camera, taking a picture, and then putting the camera down and going on about your business. It's entirely different. When I began, it was entirely different. Now, of course, I spend all, all day and much of the night thinking about pictures and proceeding doing pictures. But I had three small boys and a husband and a household and to paint, it required a length of time, which I didn't have at that point in my life. [00:04:59][51.2]
Tricia: [00:05:00] You are not the first artist, particularly woman artist, to say that. We had our friend Rachel Perry was on the first season, and she decided not to use oil paint because she had a small child and she couldn't wait for the paint to dry. Now works with stuff like fruit stickers and twisty ties and all of these things that were right in front of her as a mother, and she has still been using those throughout her career. So I think those constraints work in our favor sometimes. [00:05:25][24.5]
Laura: [00:05:25] Exactly right. And I was always interested in photography. I always took pictures, although I never thought of it as a career for myself. I felt very excited when all of a sudden I thought, wow, I'm a photographer now. And I felt very honored to be within the history of photography. [00:05:45][19.4]
Tricia: [00:05:46] So when did the moment hit? When you went, oh, I'm a photographer now. When did that moment happen for you? [00:05:52][5.9]
Laura: [00:05:52] Well, I was up in Montana actually working on the Hutterite book, and I got a call from the editor of the London Sunday Times and he said, would you go and photograph Carrie Fisher in Los Angeles? So I had to stop what I was doing in the middle of a snowstorm up in Montana photographing the Hutterites, which I felt I was doing on my own, and go up to Los Angeles, get set up, make the contact with Carrie Fisher and do it was going to be the cover of the magazine, the London Sunday Times Magazine. So, I mean, I thought, wow, well, I'm a photographer now. [00:06:32][40.3]
Tricia: [00:06:35] And talk about a difference going from the Hutterites to Los Angeles. So you do have quite the range, in your work. Here's another question for you. So I'm doing some math. It's 1979. So you're 40 in 1979, and Richard Avedon reaches out to you. And I don't know how that worked. How did you end up working with Richard Avedon? [00:06:55][20.4]
Laura: [00:06:57] The Amon Carter Museum in Fort Worth, Texas, was the director was a very entrepreneurial, bright, intelligent person. And he, although he was the director of this museum of painting and sculpture, he had been very interested in photography and was himself a photographer. So Richard Avedon had been on the cover of Time Magazine, and he was the first photographer in the history of a news magazine to ever be on the cover of a magazine. It was very big that he was the person to be on the cover. And, my husband had been hired by the Amon Carter Museum to reach out into various sources of support for the museum, as well as things that might be of interest in museums. So my husband said to Mitch Wilder, the director, what about hiring Richard Avedon to do a series of portraits of people in the American West? And Mitch Wilder immediately said, that's a great idea. Let's do it. And so I knew that Richard Avedon -- well, I didn't know at the time until we met with Richard Avedon -- that he really didn't know anything about the American West and would need someone to help him, with research and locations. And so I wrote him a note and asked if I might work for him on this project. And, he called up immediately and said, yes, you may. We'll start right away. It was fantastic. But that's something in a creative person that they move quickly and they move decisively. The very best, people at what they do. [00:08:40][103.4]
Tricia: [00:08:41] That just took so much courage on your part to say, I see an opportunity and I'm going to do this. And, you know, had you not had the gumption, things might have turned out very different. [00:08:52][10.8]
Laura: [00:08:53] You have to move quickly. When you have a thought, an idea, you have to move quickly because, there are loads of people. I mean, that's what I know from working for various magazines that there are lots of photographers who want to have the assignments that a few photographers get. And so you have to be very good, and you have to work very hard at what you're doing, because if you don't, you'll be replaced by someone better. And I learned this as well, not only from my husband, but also from Richard Avedon, that you need to move quickly when you have an idea, a thought, a direction that you might want to go. And you need to move quickly because there are always other people waiting to usurp your position. [00:09:40][47.7]
Tricia: [00:09:41] I know that's one of the reasons why you started The Writers is because you wanted to photograph John Updike and dallied a bit, and then you lost John. [00:09:50][9.1]
Laura: [00:09:51] That's a perfect example, Tricia. I met John Updike. He had come here to give a lecture, and I met him after the lecture, and he was very appealing. And, and he stood to have some pictures taken, and I thought, gosh, I'd like to photograph him myself. And, and my cousin knew him. And so I thought, well, I won't have any trouble at least making contact with him, but I dilly dallied around. And he unfortunately died very abruptly shortly thereafter, and I just thought, that's it. No more. Move. And who would I like to photograph? And I began the project immediately and, and worked on it for 12 years, which I actually needed that amount of time, because it was very hard to get these writers and many of them were in different parts of the globe. And also, sometimes they said no. And I just kept sending a note or a contact. And eventually everyone said yes. So I was very lucky, but I was lucky also to have the time. I mean, lots of projects do not allow for that expanse of time. [00:11:07][76.4]
Tricia: [00:11:08] There's a couple things there, first of all, to our listeners, what Laura is referring to is her book, The Writers, where she took photographs of 38, at least 38 writers, international writers all around the world, many who are Nobel Prize winners, National Book Award winners, Pulitzer Prize winners. It's a beautiful book that again started, what, 12 years ago? Took you 12 years to do this. And again, it is your persistence and your courage to say no, I want this to happen, and it's just such an inspiration to those of us who can possibly get easily discouraged with a no. And you seem to go, no, I'm going to come back one more time, you know? [00:11:50][41.6]
Laura: [00:11:50] Well, I think you have to be obsessed when you have an idea for a project. So, for instance, on the Hutterites or on, on this, book of the writers, I mean, just every waking minute I was thinking of how to proceed with it. So even if I were not having the opportunity to photograph a person, I was trying to arrange to have something happen in the next month or the next three months. And you absolutely have to be obsessed if you have -- and I see that in people that I meet. They will have a good idea. They'll want to work on something, but they aren't, they don't have that same, persistence and sense of, I'm going to do it. I'm going to get it done. [00:12:41][50.4]
Tricia: [00:12:42] Or do you think that makes or breaks a project? [00:12:43][1.7]
Laura: [00:12:44] Yeah it does. It makes or breaks a project. [00:12:46][1.8]
Tricia: [00:12:47] Is there ever a project in your career that you did not follow through on? Is there something like, oh, I wish I had done this and you didn't? [00:12:55][8.6]
Laura: [00:12:57] There are one or two portrait opportunities that I've had that I didn't follow up on that I still, it still bothers me. But no, there isn't a project. I mean, I, I followed through on everything that, that I felt was very important to. I mean, you can't think, oh, I'm going to do this now and that then. It always has to be in the forefront of what you're thinking about and how you're willing to spend your energies and your time. So I think there are two things you need for a creative life. One, you need energy. And the second thing is you need hope. So if you're a negative person, if you don't have the energy, if you're lackadaisical, no, it's not going to get done. It has to come from within. I feel it has to come from within me and I'm the one generating the persistence and the energy and the, laser like beam, getting this photograph taken or this project completed. [00:14:03][66.5]
Tricia: [00:14:05] And so where do you get your energy from? How do you maintain it? [00:14:07][2.6]
Laura: [00:14:08] Well, I was lucky. I was born with a lot of energy. Eat in a very healthy way. I exercise regularly, so I do things to keep my energy level high. But you have to have energy. And I've been around people who are very bright, very creative, but they don't have the energy, so they aren't able to follow through. [00:14:29][21.1]
Tricia: [00:14:30] But, you know, my concern is, you know, it's just I got to make sure I maintain my energy. So it's kind of like being a, like a high performance athlete. . [00:14:39][8.8]
Laura: [00:14:39] You have to eat properly. You have to get rest. You have to, I mean, those things which sound so pedestrian are actually very important to the creative life. [00:14:49][9.8]
Tricia: [00:14:50] They are. They are, I mean, and really, like, if I'm not good to my body, then it then I don't have the energy to keep it going. Yes. You know, and that's just, you know, not going to do Laura. It's not going to do so anyway. [00:15:03][13.5]
Laura: [00:15:04] And also a positive attitude is important because even if you're working on the subject matter -- so for instance, a war photographer, I've not worked in a war zone, but I have great admiration for those photographers who who have. But I still think you have to have a sense of optimism, a sense of hope, thinking this that I'm doing is going to have a positive effect politically or in some way. [00:15:32][28.2]
Tricia: [00:15:33] Well, you refer to a Eudora Welty quote that I love. And because I look at your work and there's so much compassion in your photographs because there's no judgment. My husband's from Ireland. He reads the Irish Times all the time. And I'm like, do you see that every photograph they pick, there's such a bias. Like, you know how the paper feels about this individual because the photograph they have selected, it just clearly, there's so much judgment in it. And media does that all the time. But when you look at your work. And your range is huge. I mean, you have photographed, you know, doing drug smuggling searches at the border. You've photographed cockfighting, which is highly illegal, and somehow you've managed to get in to do that. You have the most fabulous photograph of the debutantes in the back of a semi. What are they? The Martha Washington debutantes? Yes, yes, but there's never any judgment. It's just this is what was happening at that moment, and it's really wonderful to look at that. But to get to that Eudora Welty quote. I think this is part Eudora Welty and part you melded, but "I'm parting the curtain, that veil of indifference, that shadow that falls between people, the veil of indifference to each other's presence, to each other's wonder, to each other's human frailties". And it's just so beautiful to say that this is what photography can do is to get rid of the indifference that separates us. [00:17:05][92.0]
Laura: [00:17:07] That's exactly right. And that's the great strength of photography. And also what Eudora Welty said, is I'm not pointing my finger in judgment, but I mean, I feel I hope I'm that way as well. But she said, I'm not pointing my finger in judgment. I'm parting the curtain, that veil of indifference between one another. And that's what makes it exciting for me. [00:17:31][24.3]
Tricia: [00:17:32] Well, I'm a first person narrative storyteller, and I always say, once you hear somebody's story, you may not like them, but you cannot demonize them once you know what their story is, right? And so I think that's the thing that happens in your photographs, is that you're looking into a world we would not have otherwise seen had you not gone there. And and what's interesting about the Hutterites is I was reading some of your and listening to some of your conversations around that book, but one of the reasons why they let you in is because they knew you weren't going to share their secrets or make fun of them, or that it was really documenting some of the beauty of their life. Tell us a little bit about that experience of photographing the Hutterites. [00:18:17][45.5]
Laura: [00:18:19] Well, I think, the Hutterites don't allow photography. So there are three different levels of Hutterites, just the way you would have that in Protestantism, a Unitarian, Baptist, Church of Christ. But I was interested in the most remote and the most removed, those Hutterites which who were most strict in following the precepts of their religion. And so and they didn't allow photography. So, when I went into their communities, I went very respectfully, and I was interested in them, and I was trying to show what made them so successful. I mean, they're very successful in the sense of, they have a strong family life, strong religious beliefs and a sense of community and a work ethic. And that's quite amazing in this day and age. And it, I don't mean to say they're completely successful. They aren't. They have flaws in their way of life. But I was interested in showing what is successful in the way they live and the way they work. And I felt very lucky to be able to do it. [00:19:35][75.5]
Tricia: [00:19:35] How did you convince them? Had anyone even photographed these communities before? [00:19:39][4.2]
Laura: [00:19:41] No. They hadn't. I think I just went enough, you know, 2 or 3 times to each of the communities and spoke with them. I mean, they could tell that I was interested in their way of life in a serious way. And, I think they took a leap of faith and trusted me to be careful with their story. And I felt the responsibility of that, too. [00:20:12][31.3]
Tricia: [00:20:13] So I know that you talked about, when Richard Avedon took photographs of all the miners and went back and showed them a year later, the miners, the photographs of themselves. Were you able to go back and show the Hutterites the pictures of themselves? And what were their reactions? [00:20:31][18.1]
Laura: [00:20:32] Well, they had the same vanity that you and I would have. They say, no, I don't. Don't tell me I look like that. Because they hadn't seen photographs of themselves. And there was a lovely woman at the end of this long project that again, that I did with the Hutterites, where she was the daughter, she was a very thoughtful woman, and she was the daughter of an important minister in the Hutterite community. And she said, you know, I've been looking and looking Laura, at you, the way you work, the way you are. And I think that if you can bring a sense of how we live and how we stay close to God and how we care about each other, that that will be a way of showing how we honor God and how we honor each other in our work. It's good. And it's made me feel very pleased that that's the way she looked upon the work I did. [00:21:34][62.5]
Tricia: [00:21:34] So one of the things that you have said is that everything that interests you is difficult to get access to. What other communities have you photographed that are tricky for you to get in front of? [00:21:46][11.5]
Laura: [00:21:47] Well, the writers, for instance, they're all were so famous, as you pointed out, Nobel Prize winners, Pulitzer Prize winners, Booker Prize winners. None of them needed to be, no one wanted to be, photographed. I mean, it was hard to convince them, but I hope that by again, bringing attention to them and their way of life and what interests them and how they're influenced that it would, it would broaden people's appreciation of writing. And in these authors particularly. [00:22:20][32.8]
Tricia: [00:22:21] There was a photograph that you had taken of Tim O'Brien that is just -- you tear up when you look at it. [00:22:32][10.7]
Laura: [00:22:33] That's a wonderful photograph to to speak about because Tim O'Brien, I had been with him for two days and he has a very appealing young wife and two adorable little children at that time that I photographed him. And he was doing magic tricks, which I thought was amazing. It never occurred to me that a writer, I mean, he's not the first writer who's thought of this, but it was the first person I had met as a writer who thought that what they do is a form of magic. In any case, I enjoyed photographing him and his family very, very much. And at the end of two days, I said, well, I'd like to do a portrait of now. And so we walked out of his house into the back field where he lives in Austin, and I didn't say how to look or what to do. He stood in front of the camera, and he had this incredible look into the camera of heartache. And it was a form of agony. And I think that, I mean, this was a gift from him to me. And you saw that this is a person who has spent a good portion of his writing life thinking about the most savage, bitter, forms of existence in warfare that people have experienced. The writers seem to be more in touch with their feelings than any other group of people that I had that I've ever photographed. [00:24:11][98.5]
Tricia: [00:24:13] Isn't that interesting? [00:24:13][0.6]
Laura: [00:24:14] They're very cerebral, and they're living within their mind. And maybe they don't have the same anxieties that the rest of us do. I mean, nobody likes really to be photographed, and, but they didn't seem to mind it. They didn't seem to be uncomfortable or be apprehensive. They were able, just as Tim O'Brien was able to after two days of allowing me to be a part of his family life, with meals and the children playing, he was able to go outside and stand in front of the camera and was able to give a look into the camera. Where did it come from? It came from within him. It wasn't me asking for that, but he was able to, as I said, reach inside himself and express what he is consumed with, what he's obsessed by. [00:25:11][56.4]
Tricia: [00:25:12] You know, I also, though, think, Laura, that you must make them feel safe enough to do that. I mean, I just think you must make people feel safe, that you are going to be a good steward of their story because his photograph is just revealing so much hurt and heartbreak. You don't show that to just anybody. [00:25:37][25.3]
Laura: [00:25:38] Well, thank you for that. Each person, the writers, of course, the Hutterites or anyone that I photograph, they respond to the seriousness with which I'm working. So I'm not frivolous. I'm not wasting time. I'm not, I take what I do seriously, and they can they respond to that concentration and that level of seriousness. And I think they know that this isn't just a quick snapshot. This isn't just like a cell phone picture or even a newspaper picture. With each writer, I would go and show maybe ten other photographs that I'd taken of other writers, and they were always interested in them. Always had -- they might not say anything, but they really looked at them. And so they kind of got right away that, this is not just a little snapshot. And this isn't a woman just, you know, passing through. [00:26:38][59.3]
Tricia: [00:26:49] We'll get back to the second half of our conversation in a moment. But right now I want to tell you about our sponsor, Interbang Books, a Dallas based independent bookstore with a terrific online collection. At Interabang, their dedicated staff of book enthusiasts will guide you on your search for knowledge and the excitement of discovery. Shop their curated collection online at interabangbooks.com. That's interabangbooks.com. [00:27:19][30.1]
[00:27:19] As artists, we can recognize artists who are sort of matching our, what's the right word? Our intensity, our seriousness. [00:27:48][28.3]
Laura: [00:27:49] The seriousness. [00:27:49][0.1]
Tricia: [00:27:50] You know, the, the obsession that you refer to. You know, and so they know how hard they work to get it just right in their writing and could appreciate you were trying to get it just right in your in the work that you were doing. Yes. Because one of the things about the book, The Writers is not only are you, it's a book of your photographs, but you have written all the text, which is very compelling. I loved reading the stories of your interactions with these authors and oh my goodness, I forgot who was the one, who was that you took a photograph of swimming? Tobias Wolff. Thank you. And that you had said he knows what a good story is. So he's going to know what a good story in a photograph is. And you know what? They were sort of working with you to visually tell a story. [00:28:40][49.6]
Laura: [00:28:41] That's exactly right. That's a wonderful example because who would want to have a photographer follow them to the public swimming pool and be photographed, you know, in a bathing suit, swimming? But I think that he agreed to do it because as a writer, he knew what a good photograph would be. And that's a perfect example of, of not giving up as the photographer, because we had been going in his house, he'd been sitting next to his piano. There was a Christmas tree set up there. He had a dog that he played with in the park, you know, all these very nice things. And he went for a walk over this fantastic, California hillside. But the picture was -- and I knew it immediately when he said he swam. I felt kind of badly jumping on it so quickly. And he even said, oh, no, I was afraid you'd want to do something. He knew that that would make a good picture. [00:29:45][63.5]
Tricia: [00:29:45] That that would be the picture. [00:29:46][0.6]
Laura: [00:29:46] I mean, imagine if you're photographing writers and, if you think of the conventional picture of a writer, at a typewriter, or at their desk writing or... [00:29:55][9.7]
Tricia: [00:29:56] Looking very intellectual. [00:29:57][0.9]
Laura: [00:29:58] Exactly, and then all of a sudden the idea of a very distinguished writer, an important American writer, actually, underwater swimming seems great. [00:30:08][9.6]
Tricia: [00:30:09] Yeah. No, it's it's a fantastic image. Okay. You must also tell at least one of your biggest coups in the book was getting Cormac McCarthy photographed. Because. [00:30:18][9.8]
Laura: [00:30:19] Yes. [00:30:19][0.0]
Tricia: [00:30:20] What how long it's been since anybody had taken a picture of him? [00:30:22][2.4]
Laura: [00:30:23] Well, I think 20 years or so. And I had tried in a very conventional way, speaking to his agent, speaking to several people who said they knew him, if I might photograph him, I wrote him a letter myself, sent him a copy of another book that I had done. Nothing. And it was four years. And, I have a very good friend, who is an artist in Santa Fe. His name is James Drake. He's very, very a good artist. And, and I knew he is one of Cormac McCarthy's closest friends. In fact, Cormac McCarthy had two close friends. James Drake was one of them. And so I thought, okay, I'm going to have lunch with James Drake. And I thought, okay, this is it. It's been four years. I've tried all sorts of paths to Cormac McCarthy and I haven't been able to get him to agree to even respond to me, let alone say yes. And so all through lunch, I was thinking, all right, maybe the next minute or two, I'll ask James if he would speak on my behalf to his close friend Cormac McCarthy. And then I just, with each passing minute, I just couldn't do it. James is such a nice person and such dignity that I thought it would just put him on the spot and he would, you know, make him uncomfortable and I'm sure he won't want to do it. And if he does, even if he agrees to do it, he's not going to want to do it. Yeah. So, the lunch went by and I didn't ask him. So two hours later, I was sitting in a little coffee shop in Santa Fe, and I was despondent. I was saying, you know, what kind of a photographer am I that I can't even ask a friend, you know? So, what a waste. You know, here I am, and we're so close, I know I could have gotten to Cormac McCarthy if I'd only spoken to James. No, nothing. So, all of a sudden, a man came in and I didn't even know him that well. But we we had met and we knew each other by name. And he said, hi, Laura, how are you? And I said, oh my gosh, terrible. He said, what's the matter? And I said, well, I just had lunch with James Drake. And he said, oh, I'm a friend of Cormac McCarthys. He was the other close friend. [00:33:00][156.1]
Tricia: [00:33:00] Oh my goodness gracious. [00:33:01][1.3]
Laura: [00:33:02] I'll ask him if you may photograph him. And he said, I don't mind asking him at all. And so Cormac McCarthy agreed, and I went back up to Santa Fe, at the end of the week and photographed the three of them together. And they're very nice pictures, because you see the friendship and the level of camaraderie and warmth between them. And so I'm very pleased with those pictures of Cormac McCarthy, because he was comfortable doing them and agreed to do them and seemed to enjoy it. [00:33:36][34.3]
Tricia: [00:33:37] But again, four years! You stuck at it for four years. I mean. [00:33:42][4.3]
Laura: [00:33:42] I know. [00:33:42][0.2]
Tricia: [00:33:43] It's such a fabulous motivator for me when I get like, oh, this is taking so long, I can just go it's not been four years yet. You know, I just I want to ask you a question, though, and I'm kind of going backwards in time. You got this gig with Richard Avedon to be his assistant. How old were your boys? Were you gone from the house a long time, or how did that work? [00:34:06][22.8]
Laura: [00:34:07] I was 39 when I began working for Dick, and, my oldest son was 16 or 17 and then 13 and then 8. And so they were young. Just because they're not real toddlers anymore, they still need a lot of attention. Yeah. I couldn't be gone for long periods of time, so I'd be gone for 2 or 3 days at a time. [00:34:31][24.8]
Tricia: [00:34:32] Okay. [00:34:32][0.0]
Laura: [00:34:33] But, my husband was very attentive. And also my mother was very attentive. [00:34:39][6.4]
Tricia: [00:34:40] Okay. So you had a support system in place because that takes a lot of courage, too, to rearrange your life to be able to make that happen. [00:34:47][7.1]
Laura: [00:34:48] Right. But I think that my husband wanted very much to give me the opportunity to work with Richard Avedon. I mean, he knew what an extraordinary opportunity it was, but it was hard. And then certain times I would take the boys with me. Okay. And I do think that, I don't know what they'd say about this, but I do think the fact that they were exposed to Richard Avedon and exposed to another person who, Marvin Israel, who was a graphic, a very accomplished graphic designer. I think their exposure at a young age to those two very experienced men stood them in good stead. I mean, they were comfortable and had fun with them. And they maybe when they went out on their own into their own careers that they were not, they had the courage to speak up for themselves and to enjoy the process of meeting other people. [00:35:45][57.2]
Tricia: [00:35:46] For our listeners who don't know, you've got three sons who are actors and, you know, they were around the creative process as children. And so it'd be something that would be comfortable for them to step into careers that require that kind of collaboration and creative process and a way to problem solve. And I mean, if you've got a set of parents who were creative, it's going to rub off on those kids. And that's that's a really good thing. [00:36:10][24.1]
Laura: [00:36:10] I think that's definitely true. And we encouraged them. And my husband was very, very encouraging of them, going to Los Angeles and working, trying to pursue a career in moviemaking. [00:36:26][16.2]
Tricia: [00:36:28] Worked out, worked out for them. [00:36:29][1.6]
Laura: [00:36:30] Yeah. Sure did. [00:36:32][1.7]
Tricia: [00:36:33] And one of the things that you were doing for Richard Avedon and then you obviously do yourself is, you know, you were scouting for people. That was one of the things you were doing with him. What do you look for in a face when you're taking photographs and taking these exquisite portraits? What are you looking for in a face? [00:36:54][21.3]
Laura: [00:36:56] Well, you look for something that you haven't seen before. You look for the surprise. You look for the face that if you were to make a photographic print of that face and it would hold the wall, you could put it up on the wall and you'd think, oh, wow, I haven't seen that. You look for the face that's unusual. And it isn't about beauty. It isn't about handsomeness necessarily. It's about the face that's expressive of what we all feel as part of the human condition. [00:37:29][32.8]
Tricia: [00:37:30] I love that. One of the things we always talk about in storytelling is you want to have a story that has a universal theme to it. You know that you may not be able to relate to the the situation of the storyteller, but you can relate to the feelings that that storyteller is having. And you're saying that's the exact same thing you look at in a photograph. Do they have some universal emotion that we can look at and go that. I am, I'm in that person, and that must be why your photographs just resonate so much, because I look at all of them and go, why am I relating to this man, who I've never met? You know, there's something about them that there's a real connection. [00:38:09][39.1]
Laura: [00:38:10] I think, for instance, an example of, an extraordinary face is Tom Stoppard. So when I was in London and, I mean, I myself, still, get apprehensive and sort of think, ooh, am I going to get it? When I'm working with someone who has great fame himself or herself. You have to be on top of your own game when you're doing that and using -- I don't want to, I don't want to fail in any way. Yeah. And when Tom Stoppard stood again, like, just like Tim O'Brien, stood in front of the camera and he said, okay, what do you want? You want smiling, you want serious? You tell me. How do you want me? And I looked down. I was shooting with a two and a quarter camera Hasselblatt and I looked down through and this incredible expression on his face, and I said, that's it. You're perfect just the way you are. And I took maybe, you know, 3 or 4 frames, and that was it. I mean, he had an amazing face. And again, with Carlos Fuentes, the very distinguished, Latin American writer, who was from Mexico City. It's very easy to take a picture of Carlos Fuentes looking very dashing, very handsome, he had white hair. But he was famously handsome. Yeah. But to get an expression, to look for something more than the picture face, that's what you want. So I don't think Carlos Fuentes realized what was happening, but he had this terrible agony in his expression. And that's the picture that I felt expressed his life as he had experienced. He had experienced tragedy in his life. And I felt that this expression, which was fleeting, expressed some of what he had experienced. [00:40:12][121.8]
Tricia: [00:40:13] I love what you just said there, which was fleeting, I mean your attention to detail and paying attention and being alert to those moments. [00:40:22][8.9]
Laura: [00:40:23] That's exactly it. Paying attention and being alert to the moments that because anyone can take a picture and there are, you know, especially nowadays. But you have to be alert to those moments and attentive to that expression, which is unusual and which is, expresses more than what is just a mask. [00:40:48][25.1]
Tricia: [00:40:49] It's way more than the equipment, being a photographer. [00:40:52][3.3]
Laura: [00:40:53] No, no, it's nothing about the equipment. You mean it's nothing about f stops and shutter speeds. It isn't even about being in focus. You can take a good picture that's out of focus. [00:41:02][8.2]
Tricia: [00:41:03] Yeah, that's really something. You have lots of milestones, but the one that made me the most excited, is that at how old were you? Were you 79, 80? When you were inducted into the National Cowgirl Hall of Fame. I just think that's the coolest thing ever. And you're in amazing company in the Cowgirl Hall of Fame. [00:41:27][24.6]
Laura: [00:41:28] Exactly! Sandra Day O'Connor. [00:41:29][0.9]
Tricia: [00:41:30] I know! Reba McEntire! But I was like Sandra Day O'Connor. That's incredible. So talk a little bit about that experience. [00:41:38][7.3]
Laura: [00:41:39] Because I've been obsessed with the American West and I've done a lot of photography in the American West, the Cowgirl Hall of Fame was interested in my work. And so they asked if I would have an exhibition, and they said that we were considering you being a member of the Cowgirl Hall of Fame. So I said, well, if you're considering me being a member, I'm considering whether to have the exhibition there. And so I'll have the exhibition if you consider me seriously as a member of the Cowgirl Hall of Fame. So that's, how it happened. I felt very, I mean, I really loved it because I grew up in this tiny little New England town. There were 32 in my high school class. It was all about whaling and the Atlantic Ocean. So to be here in the American West and be inducted into the Cowgirl Hall of Fame. Wow. Plus I knew how to ride. [00:42:43][64.4]
Tricia: [00:42:44] You do? Okay. Yeah. [00:42:45][1.0]
Laura: [00:42:45] Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I'm not just a photographer. I mean. [00:42:48][3.1]
Tricia: [00:42:49] You are literally a cowgirl. [00:42:50][1.1]
Laura: [00:42:52] Not so much a cowgirl. I mean, I rode all my life growing up, so, horse person. [00:42:59][6.8]
Tricia: [00:42:59] That is a fabulous narrative arc though -- a small town in New England town where it's all about whaling to being in the Cowgirl Hall of Fame. That is a story right there. There's a great story right there. And see, here's the thing. You're kind of my hero because you're 84, you're still working. [00:43:15][15.6]
Laura: [00:43:16] You have to keep working. [00:43:17][0.9]
Tricia: [00:43:18] Yeah, yeah. And when you say you have to keep working, tell me why you have to keep working. [00:43:21][3.8]
Laura: [00:43:22] Well, what am I going to do if I don't work? I mean, first of all, it's enormously interesting what I do, the people I meet, the things that I see. And what is as interesting? Am I going to sit around and play cards or, you know, I don't know? I'm obsessed with what I do and all the time creating exhibitions in my mind. But so I'm now working on photographs in Mexico, where I have worked over the past 30 years and having an exhibition at the Meadows Museum in Dallas in the fall of 2025. So these, I'm going to Patsquaro next week, which is a colonial town in the interior of Mexico where I'll photograph several things that are of interest to me. [00:44:15][52.3]
Tricia: [00:44:15] Yeah, yeah. Things that are probably hard to get to. But you're going to somehow do it anyway. [00:44:18][2.7]
Laura: [00:44:19] Exactly. And then I had just come back from Pueblo, which is another town in Mexico, where I photographed hard working people. [00:44:28][9.1]
Tricia: [00:44:29] Yeah. Okay. Now, are you also working on doing a body of work around movie making? [00:44:34][5.2]
Laura: [00:44:36] Yes, behind the scenes of making movies. So the thing about it is, Tricia there, there aren't enough hours to get that done and that book -- I have, not because I took them, but just because I had the opportunity, I was there at the time, some wonderful pictures of behind the scenes of movie making. Wes Anderson has been very kind to me and allowed me to go on his sets. And my own boys have been very kind and encouraged me to photograph behind the scenes and there's nothing more fun than being on a movie set. [00:45:10][34.3]
Tricia: [00:45:10] But I also love this range of the hard working people of Mexico and sort of the glamor of a movie set. [00:45:15][4.9]
Laura: [00:45:16] Well, you know what it is, Tricia, that, the creative process and you see this in movie making. They work very, very hard. I mean, there is lots of pressure on every single person making a movie, whether it's the stunt men and women, whether it's the cinematographer, I mean, the pressure on a cinematographer is enormous. The money that's involved, the time that's involved, and the costumers, it's, there are all sorts of people on a movie set who work so hard and are so good at what they do, that it's really a pleasure to be around them. And, so, yes, it's glamorous because then the movie is seen in Canne. [00:46:02][45.9]
Tricia: [00:46:02] Yeah, that it is behind the scenes, it's the behind the scenes. [00:46:04][2.2]
Laura: [00:46:04] Behind the scenes, you see how hard they work and the pressure under which they work, and how creative they are and how imaginative they are. And, I think something that's very important in the creative process is to emphasize hard work and discipline and attention to detail and obsession. Those are all critical to a creative person. I mean, that's one aspect of getting a book written or the photograph made or a movie made. You have to have more. And, by having more, are quite regular things. Returning a phone call, answering your mail. [00:46:53][48.6]
Tricia: [00:46:53] Yeah, yeah. [00:46:54][0.4]
Laura: [00:46:54] Those kinds of things. [00:46:55][0.7]
Tricia: [00:46:55] Well, and you're just such a perfect example of persistence. I mean, just keeping at it and keeping at it. Until you get that yes. Until you get that yes. [00:47:04][8.7]
Laura: [00:47:05] And keeping at it so you know what's happening in your field so that you're not, you know, you're not repeating yourself or repeating what's already been done better years before. You have to know what's happening now, and you have to know what what could be happening in the future. [00:47:23][18.6]
Tricia: [00:47:24] Well, it's just knowing your field, knowing your genre, knowing what's happening out there so that you stay part of the conversation. [00:47:30][6.3]
Laura: [00:47:31] Yes. [00:47:31][0.0]
Tricia: [00:47:32] My question for you now is, since the name of the show is No time to be Timid, in what area of your life right now do you need some courage? Where do you need courage as you're moving forward? [00:47:44][12.1]
Laura: [00:47:45] Well, I think if you really think about that, just getting up in the morning and having the optimism and channeling the energy into having a day of accomplishment and not wasting time. I mean, it's very easy to have darkness descend on one, and it's very easy to have one's optimism crushed. So I think that's the challenge. [00:48:21][36.4]
Tricia: [00:48:22] Yeah, yeah. No matter what age, that is the challenge. [00:48:26][3.2]
Laura: [00:48:26] Yeah. No matter what age exactly. You know. [00:48:28][2.1]
Tricia: [00:48:29] Laura, I just can't thank you enough for joining us today. I really appreciate you spending time with us. And to all of our listeners you must, must go look at her work, particularly her latest book, The Writers. It's really fantastic. Thank you so much. [00:48:43][14.1]
Laura: [00:48:44] Thank you, Tricia, very much. And thank you for doing such amazing home work. And I'm very impressed by all you put into this. Thank you very, very much. I appreciate it. [00:48:56][11.3]
Tricia: [00:48:56] You're welcome. [00:48:56][0.3]
Laura: [00:48:56] Good luck. [00:48:57][0.2]
Tricia: [00:48:57] Thank you. [00:48:58][0.4]
Tricia: [00:49:18] After I spoke with Laura, I just wanted to go make something. Her energy and passion for her work are contagious. And in case you're wondering, her movie making sons are Andrew, Luke, and Owen Wilson. If you pursue your own creativity, you have no idea how that will play out among your friends and family. Now here's some questions for us to think about. How are you maintaining your energy? Are you taking care of yourself? Laura's projects can take over a decade to complete and that takes energy and focus to sustain. Are you following through on your creative ideas or are you dilly dallying? And what does your obsession look like? Are you persistent or do you give up easily? Check out Laura's work at laurawilsonphotography.com, and make sure to buy her books online through our sponsor Interabang Books. She's one of their beloved local authors. It's a two for one! And speaking of supporting our No Time to be Timid community. Our pal Steve Young, former comedy writer from David Letterman from season two, episode eight, has just released his first album, Broken Heart Insurance, which he describes as alt country, frequently humorous, often heartfelt. You can find it on Spotify, Amazon, Apple, YouTube and all places that you can get music. There's a video too, so check it out! If you're listening to this podcast, it's because you care about creativity and courage too. And believe like I do, that this is no time to be timid. This year I'm taking the no time to be timid message on the road. And maybe your part of the world needs to hear it. If you're looking to awaken boldness and creativity in your company or organization, I'd love to come speak to you. Let's have a conversation. Please reach out to me at booking@triciaroseburt.com. Join us for our next episode when our guest will be Radha Agrawal, author, social entrepreneur and founder of Daybreaker, a global sober dance movement. She held her first event a little over ten years ago at six in the morning in a coffee shop in Manhattan. Since then, more than 500,000 people have participated across 33 cities and seven continents. You don't want to miss this episode. In fact, you don't want to miss any episodes this season, so make sure to subscribe. And remember, this is no time to be timid. No Time to Be Timid is written and produced by me, Tricia Rose Burt. Our episodes are produced and scored by Adam Arnone of Echo Finch, and our theme music is Twists and Turns by the Paul Dunlea Group. If you like what you hear, please spread the word, subscribe to the show, and review us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen. No Time to Be Timid is a presentation of I Will Be Good Productions. [00:49:18][0.0]